Jason Bateman: Today's a tough one for me.
Today's guests are from my dream list. That is a list that I gave our producer, Michael, before we even began this podcast. These are people we'll never get. They're just examples of the kinds of folks that I would die to be trapped in an elevator with.
I never asked Michael for an update on pursuing these people because I assumed it would be a waste of time.
Then, about a month ago, he surprised me with a text out of nowhere saying these guys were coming on.
So... today's a tough one for me.
These fellas are in a band that is, in my opinion, the best band there has ever been.
They have a new band that we're going to talk about, but the one you're know them from has consistently given us music that is never routine. It's always challenging in the best possible way, and no two songs ever sound the same.
They met in school along with their other bandmates, and they've been playing together ever since—which is pretty admirable, considering they're about as old as we are.
They've released nine studio albums, sold over thirty million records, won six Grammy Awards, and were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2019.
Fellas, if this is a dream, I'm good to stay down. Smother me with a pillow and say, "Night-night."
Please welcome, from Radiohead and The Smile, Thom Yorke and Jonny Greenwood.
Will Arnett: No way!
I knew it! As soon as you mentioned they had a new band, I thought, "I know who this is," because I'd heard these guys were incredible.
Are you kidding me?
Thom, Jonny... my God.
What an honour and a pleasure to have you both here.
Jason Bateman: We saw these guys together, didn't we? Around 2003?
Will Arnett: I don't remember if I was with you because I was probably in a blackout of pleasure...
But sure—if you say I was there, great.
Jason Bateman: Was that the Hollywood Bowl?
Will Arnett: Yeah, the Hollywood Bowl.
Jason Bateman: While we're on that subject...
Can you quietly tell us when we might be able to see Radiohead live again?
Or when we might hear another Radiohead album?
Will Arnett: Easy there...
Maybe ease into it a little.
Thom Yorke: (laughs)
Well...
We like to tour when we have new songs.
And we only have new songs when we make a new record.
And we seem to make records at increasingly infrequent intervals...
So—who knows?
Jason Bateman: But The Smile...
You're close to finishing that record, right?
The new single you released the other day was incredible.
Thom Yorke: Thank you.
Yes, pretty much.
There was a bit of a delay...
Jonny Greenwood: (laughing)
Because Thom was doing the artwork.
Thom Yorke: I was trying to finish all the artwork.
That's the first time artwork has ever been the thing holding up a record.
Jason Bateman: So the songs are finished, and you're just completing the artwork?
Thom Yorke: Pretty much.
I think I even have a title.
I'm just not going to tell you what it is yet.
It's all taken a long time.
I think part of it was simply not being able to see each other for prolonged periods of time.
Being told to stay indoors...
Jason Bateman: Wikipedia suggested that The Smile was something of a COVID project.
Was it born out of being separated from one another, the way this podcast was for us?
Thom Yorke: Actually, no.
It happened really, really quickly.
Then it became painfully long.
We got into the studio, and Jonny and Tom Skinner already had ideas ready to go.
It felt like they'd recorded four pieces before I even knew what was happening.
Then lockdown arrived shortly afterwards.
I was left sitting at home with what we'd recorded on tape, trying to work out lyrics.
That took a very long time.
It became more and more drawn out.
Deeply frustrating.
But it was the same for everybody.
I eventually figured out a way to record vocals remotely, straight into Nigel Godrich's studio.
That was pretty wild.
I was effectively recording into the studio virtually.
Jason Bateman: Did you do that over something like ISDN or Source-Connect?
Thom Yorke: Something like that.
But after four o'clock every afternoon you could forget it.
That's when all the kids got home from school.
Everything slowed down.
Jason Bateman: Same here.
Jason Bateman: Is that your typical way of writing songs—that the music comes first and the lyrics come later?
I know musicians get asked this all the time, but everyone seems to have a different answer. Sometimes it's the music first, sometimes it's the lyrics first.
Do you have a preferred approach?
I've always been fascinated by how a song begins.
Thom Yorke: It depends.
Jonny arrived with a whole batch of ideas, and because I hadn't seen him for quite a while, they all came pouring out before I had a chance to say, "Wait... wait... wait..."
So I found myself retrospectively asking, "Okay... what am I going to do with all of that?"
It was actually really nice.
A genuine challenge.
Then there are other songs—like the one we released last week, You Will Never Work in Television Again...
Sean Hayes: Was that aimed at me?
Will Arnett: Or Sean?
How did you know about Sean's future?
Thom Yorke: (laughs)
I don't think it's unique to Sean.
Jason Bateman: Do either of you remember writing your very first song?
I mean your very first one—not the first one that was released, but the first one where you thought, "We've actually written a song."
Thom Yorke: I remember writing one when I was about eleven called Mushroom Cloud.
I can only remember half the riff now, and none of the lyrics.
Then Jonny and I borrowed a four-track recorder from somebody and went round to his mum's house.
Jason Bateman: Was that while you were all at Abingdon School?
Thom Yorke: Yes.
Jason Bateman: That's where the band started?
Thom Yorke: Yes.
We'd record on Friday afternoons.
Jason Bateman: Going back to songwriting...
Do you ever dream a melody or lyrics, wake up convinced you've written something incredible, and then discover it's gone—or not nearly as brilliant as you thought?
Jonny Greenwood: Bits of songs.
Bits survive.
But they're nearly always slightly underwhelming once you're awake.
Not quite as genius as they seemed in the dream.
Will Arnett: I know two musicians—we all know them, and they're legends—who had exactly that experience.
One of them called the other and said, "I took mushrooms last night and had the greatest musical revelation of my life. I wrote everything down."
He came back to the notebook, looked at the page, and just said, "What does that even say?"
It was complete nonsense.
Jason Bateman: Thom, are you the kind of person who wakes up at three in the morning, dictates ideas into your phone, while your wife rolls over thinking, "Here we go... another song"?
Thom Yorke: Fortunately, she's a very sound sleeper.
Phones are incredibly convenient because they have their own light.
You can wake up at three in the morning, start scribbling notes, and then go straight back to sleep.
I do that quite a lot.
I've pretty much stopped using physical notebooks now.
Jason Bateman: Everything's digital?
Thom Yorke: Pretty much.
There's not much point carrying notebooks anymore.
Jason Bateman: When all these musical ideas start coming together...
Your music has always moved forward. Every album seems to invent its own language.
As listeners, we often need time to understand a new Radiohead record. Sometimes I have to hear a song thirty times before it suddenly becomes my favourite.
I'm wondering whether that's true for you as well.
When Jonny brings in an unusual instrument or an unexpected musical idea—or when you arrive with a new piano piece—how long do you live with those ideas before you know whether they're actually working?
How do you decide whether something is simply strange... or genuinely great?
Jonny Greenwood: Wow...
Sorry...
Will Arnett: We'll be right back.
We have to take a break after a question like that.
Sean Hayes: Jason, are you kidding me?
Will Arnett: This is a big one.
Jonny and Thom are here!
Sean Hayes: I think November just finished his fourth beer.
Will Arnett: Great question.
I'm going to be bored halfway through the answer...
But go for it.
Jonny Greenwood: (laughs)
What was the question again?
Will Arnett: When you hear something strange, how long does it take before you know whether it's weird... or brilliant?
Jonny Greenwood: It's funny.
Over the years—over the decades, really—we've learned to trust those moments when something initially sounds completely senseless.
I remember the early versions of Everything in Its Right Place.
At first it just sounded like a bizarre noise.
We all thought, "This isn't going to become a song."
Then, after a day or two, it suddenly transformed into something magical.
So...
Maybe six months.
(laughs)
Jason Bateman: Do you ever have moments where somebody unexpectedly changes the direction of a piece?
It's a bit like what happens in acting.
You arrive with a script. Everybody knows their role.
Then somebody does something completely unexpected and suddenly a scene comes alive.
You discover a joke that wasn't there before, or an emotional moment you didn't anticipate.
When it's over, everyone looks at each other and thinks, "That was really special."
Do you get those moments when you're writing together?
Jonny Greenwood: I think that's what all collaborative work is really about.
You're always hoping the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts.
If I can use that rather awful word...
It's a Gestalt.
Will Arnett: Can I ask something?
Why are you here?
(laughs)
Seriously.
Did you agree because you've listened to the podcast?
Did your manager make you do it?
Or did you see Sean in Promises, Promises on Broadway?
Thom Yorke: (laughs)
I have to admit...
I've zoomed in on Sean's picture this whole time.
Sean Hayes: We couldn't tell until you mentioned it.
Jason Bateman: Thom, Jonny...
I wanted to ask about your influences.
When Radiohead first appeared, I remember hearing something that felt completely new, yet strangely familiar at the same time.
That's always been the hallmark of a truly great band for me.
It's as though the music scratches an itch you didn't even know you had.
Who were the artists you couldn't stop listening to when you were growing up?
Which records shaped you?
For me it was The Smiths.
From 1983 until about 1989 I couldn't stop listening to them.
I still listen to them.
Now my daughter does too.
Thom Yorke: For us...
It was bands like Pixies, New Order and Sonic Youth.
Jonny Greenwood: We also listened to a lot of what we used to call "the Boston bands."
Throwing Muses...
R.E.M...
Jason Bateman: Throwing Muses!
What a fantastic band.
Jonny, was your interest in unusual instruments connected to your early exposure to classical music through your father?
I've read that somewhere, although Wikipedia isn't always the most reliable source.
Jonny Greenwood: When I was a teenager I'd drive past music shops and fantasise about being able to walk in and buy absolutely any instrument.
It wasn't about collecting guitars.
It was about imagining what it would be like to buy a clarinet... or an accordion... simply because you wanted to hear what sounds it could make.
Oddly enough, that's more or less how my life turned out.
I do collect instruments now.
I just love discovering the different sounds they produce.
Jason Bateman: So was that fascination with instruments what eventually led you towards electronics as well?
To me, it's all technology.
A piano is simply older technology than a Moog synthesizer, but it's still somebody's invention—a different way of making music.
Did all of you naturally move towards electronic instruments together, or did one person in the band lead everyone else in that direction?
Thom Yorke: I think it happened quite naturally.
When we first started, we were just a small band travelling around in a van.
Will Arnett: Who was driving?
Thom Yorke: We took turns.
Not me very often.
I was usually drunk in the back.
(laughs)
Mostly it was the more responsible members of the band.
Or our long-suffering tour manager.
What really happened was that we constantly exchanged records.
As the years went on, we all started listening to different things and sharing them with each other.
Ennio Morricone...
Stanley Kubrick films...
Electronic music...
Krautrock...
Can...
One discovery would lead to another.
Jonny had always been the multi-instrumentalist.
He could pick up almost anything—even a recorder—and immediately make music with it.
Then, eventually, we all had our own studios.
We could afford equipment, experiment with it, and gradually learn how to use it.
That was incredibly exciting.
Jason Bateman: How much Kraftwerk did you listen to while you were driving around in that van?
Jonny Greenwood: Probably not enough.
We practically studied Computer World.
We'd play it over and over, discussing every sound.
Trying to work out exactly which instruments they were using and how they'd achieved those textures.
They actually toured South America with us once.
Jason Bateman: No!
Jonny Greenwood: We had an incredibly long dinner together.
We spent the entire evening dissecting Computer World, asking which instrument had been used for every individual sound.
It was the ultimate geek-out.
Thom Yorke: I managed to start the conversation brilliantly by saying:
"Hi, Ralf. We're all terrified of you."
Will Arnett: (laughs)
Well, that's difficult to recover from.
Thom Yorke: Exactly.
You can't really continue after that.
Jason Bateman: Earlier you mentioned Stanley Kubrick.
What was it about his films that influenced you?
Was it his use of classical music?
The way he placed those extraordinary pieces against such powerful images?
That's certainly what affects me most.
Thom Yorke: For me it was The Shining.
That film had an enormous impact.
I remember seeing it for the first time and suddenly understanding how music could create an emotional connection that went far beyond simply illustrating what you were watching.
That feeling seemed to fit exactly where we were during OK Computer.
Then there was Morricone.
I remember when we recorded the string parts for OK Computer...
Jonny Greenwood: Those players were the grumpiest orchestra we'd ever worked with.
Thom Yorke: (laughs)
I remember that.
Jonny Greenwood: The orchestral contractor warned me beforehand.
He said, "Don't expect them to be enthusiastic."
And he was absolutely right.
Jason Bateman: Jonny, was that around the time you first started thinking about composing for films yourself?
You've both worked on film music, but you're obviously the one who reads music.
Thom Yorke: I can't read music.
He's the one who does all that.
I'm a complete amateur.
Jonny Greenwood: I think it simply came from the fact that when we were at school we listened to every kind of music we could find.
We were too young to be frightened of trying any of it.
You'd hear a Smiths record and think, "Let's have a go at something like that."
Then you'd hear classical music and think exactly the same thing.
Why be afraid of being over-ambitious?
We never really saw the boundaries that other people seemed to see.
Jason Bateman: Do you feel less fearless now than you did when you were younger?
One of the wonderful things about being young is that you don't yet know what you're incapable of.
You just think, "Why not me?"
As you get older, though, you become more aware of people who are genuinely extraordinary at what they do.
Does that ever make you hesitate?
Jonny Greenwood: I think that's exactly what happens.
You gradually become more aware of people who are astonishingly good at what they do.
Whether it's music, acting, or anything else, you begin to recognize just how remarkable they are.
That's often the moment when you retreat a little and think, "This is far beyond anything I could ever achieve."
But you're still aiming for it.
You miss—but it's fun to aim.
Jason Bateman: Film scoring seems like a very different challenge.
Most of the time you're writing to picture.
You're trying either to support what's happening on screen or deliberately work against it.
You're serving the film rather than creating a standalone piece of music.
Do you enjoy that difference?
Jonny Greenwood: I still think of it as being in a band.
The director, the cinematographer, the script—they're all part of the group.
You're simply contributing one element.
Just as we were saying earlier, you hope everything combines into something that's better than any individual contribution.
You hope the music makes the film better, and the film makes the music better.
Thom Yorke: The best film music always has a little tension between the music and the image.
It's very easy to write music that simply reacts to what's happening on screen.
I don't find that interesting.
If two actors stand opposite each other and one simply copies the other's movements, there's no point.
They're supposed to bounce ideas off one another.
The relationship should create something new.
Jason Bateman: That's exactly what I've found as well.
Sometimes the combinations you least expect turn out to be the most powerful.
Will Arnett: That reminds me of visiting your place when you were at college in Exeter.
You always had the television on with the sound muted while records were playing.
Almost any combination of music and pictures seemed to create a completely different meaning.
Jonny Greenwood: That's when I really became interested in video editing.
I'd gone to art college and started working with video.
I realised you could cut almost anything against almost any piece of music and completely transform its meaning.
Your brain naturally tries to make connections, even when there aren't any.
Will Arnett: Hey, Jason—I've got a follow-up.
Jason Bateman: Is it actually a follow-up?
Will Arnett: It is!
Jason Bateman: Go ahead.
Will Arnett: Last night I was watching The Killing—the Danish version I mentioned earlier.
I thought there were only twelve episodes, so I stayed up to watch the finale.
Then I discovered there were twenty.
Anyway...
There was one scene where the score suddenly came in completely wrong.
It was the first time in years I'd watched something and thought, "That music absolutely doesn't belong there."
It made me realise just how crucial film music really is.
Jonny Greenwood: It really is.
Music carries you emotionally through a scene.
It shapes how you arrive at the next scene as well.
It can absolutely make or break a film.
Jason Bateman: How did you first meet Paul Thomas Anderson?
Did one of you reach out to the other?
Jonny Greenwood: It was a long time ago.
I think we were recording Hail to the Thief in Los Angeles.
Paul invited us to a cast-and-crew screening of Punch-Drunk Love.
Partly because he'd borrowed the title from one of Thom's songs.
Jason Bateman: Really?
I had no idea.
Jonny Greenwood: Afterwards he came to the studio and spent some time with us.
Thom Yorke: You're trying very hard not to say "hung out," aren't you?
Jonny Greenwood: (laughs)
I am.
It sounds terrible in an English accent.
Thom Yorke: Nothing's worse than an Englishman saying, "Let's hang out."
Will Arnett: (laughs)
What about "chill"?
Thom Yorke: Even worse.
"Let's chill out this weekend."
It's exhausting.
Jason Bateman: Was it difficult for Paul to persuade you to score one of his films?
Jonny Greenwood: Not really.
He'd taken a bootleg recording of a classical piece I'd written and laid it against some picture.
He liked the combination and simply asked, "Can you write more music like this?"
At that point I didn't really know much about films.
I certainly didn't know much about film scoring.
For me, it was simply an excuse to work with an orchestra.
That was the biggest thrill.
It still is.
Thom Yorke: I remember meeting Paul around that time in a hotel.
He said, "I'm going to borrow your friend for a while."
He never really gave him back.
(laughs)
Jason Bateman: I completely understand that.
When I made Ozark, I'd wanted to work with Stephen Malkmus for years.
I actually wrote scenes hoping I'd eventually be able to ask him to contribute music.
When it finally happened, it completed the show exactly the way I'd imagined.
Thom Yorke: Stephen Malkmus is amazing.
He's one of the very few artists whose new records I genuinely look forward to.
Whenever I hear he's made another album, I get excited.
He's such a wonderful guitarist.
One of the very few guitarists I can still listen to and simply think, "That's incredible."
Jason Bateman: There have been so many great music documentaries recently.
The Beatles...
The Bee Gees...
Would you ever make a documentary about Radiohead?
Jonny Greenwood: There already is one.
It's about the OK Computer tour.
Jason Bateman: There is?
I somehow missed that.
Jonny Greenwood: It's a remarkable film.
Although it's also probably the documentary to end all documentaries.
After making it, I don't think any of us ever wanted a camera following us around again.
Thom Yorke: It actually began with very good intentions.
We thought, "Let's show people what life is really like inside the band."
But it became incredibly intense.
You imagine you'll eventually forget the cameras are there.
We never did.
They tried to make themselves invisible, but you were always aware of them.
Jason Bateman: At that point in your career, did you imagine you'd still be making music together in your fifties?
Do you enjoy it as much now as you did then?
Thom Yorke: The same things still excite us.
Technology.
New sounds.
Learning new ways of working.
As long as the ideas keep coming, I don't really understand why we'd stop.
Jason Bateman: I hesitate to ask this because it's such a cliché...
Will Arnett: Then don't.
(laughs)
Jason Bateman: I don't get the impression that you feel under pressure to reinvent yourselves every time you make a record.
People often describe Radiohead that way, but I wonder whether that's actually how it feels from the inside.
Did you develop a kind of healthy indifference to expectations early on?
Will Arnett: "Healthy indifference."
You make it sound so attractive.
Jason Bateman: Well...
That's what I mean.
Thom Yorke: Honestly, I just like challenges.
I like finding different ways of writing lyrics.
I like discovering different ways of assembling music.
I like learning new instruments—exactly the way Jonny does.
It wakes me up in the morning.
It probably always will.
There's never been some grand aesthetic plan saying, "Now we'll move into this area."
It's much more direct than that.
Whatever we're listening to changes us.
I'm constantly buying new records.
I'm constantly discovering new things.
That's simply how we work.
Jason Bateman: Before we let you disappear...
I have to ask about live performance.
After everything that's happened over the last couple of years, was it emotional getting back in front of an audience again?
Thom Yorke: Very.
You don't really appreciate what you've been missing until you're standing there again.
There are certain things that only happen when you're playing in front of people.
You can't recreate that feeling anywhere else.
Jonny Greenwood: It's the audience that completes the performance.
You rehearse.
You prepare.
But until there are people in the room, you don't really know what the music is going to become.
Jason Bateman: Does every audience feel different?
Jonny Greenwood: Completely.
Every room sounds different.
Every audience listens differently.
Sometimes they're incredibly quiet.
Sometimes they're much louder.
Sometimes you can feel everybody concentrating.
That changes the way you play.
Will Arnett: Does it ever throw you?
If the audience is too quiet?
Thom Yorke: No.
Usually that's a good sign.
It often means they're completely absorbed.
That's actually wonderful.
Sean Hayes: Do you ever look out into the crowd?
Or do you deliberately avoid eye contact?
Thom Yorke: I used to avoid it.
When I was younger I found it terrifying.
Now I enjoy it.
I like seeing people react.
Sometimes they're smiling.
Sometimes they're crying.
Sometimes they're just standing there with their mouths open.
It's fascinating.
Jason Bateman: You must have seen some extraordinary things over the years.
Thom Yorke: Oh yes.
Most of which probably shouldn't be repeated.
(laughs)
Will Arnett: That's exactly the answer I was hoping for.
Jason Bateman: Is there still a song that gives you butterflies before you play it?
One where you think, "We've really got to get this one right."
Jonny Greenwood: Usually it's the new songs.
They're still changing.
They're still finding their shape.
Older songs become part of your body after a while.
The new ones demand much more attention.
Thom Yorke: That's why it's exciting.
If everything becomes too comfortable, it starts to lose its edge.
You're always looking for something that still feels a little dangerous.
Jason Bateman: Well, congratulations on The Smile.
The music is extraordinary.
Thank you both so much for spending time with us today.
Thom Yorke: Thank you.
We really enjoyed it.
Jonny Greenwood: Thanks very much.
Will Arnett: It was an absolute pleasure.
Sean Hayes: Thanks, guys.
Jason Bateman: We'll see you again someday.
Thom Yorke: Hopefully.
Take care.
Jonny Greenwood: Bye.
Jason Bateman: They're such thoughtful people.
Will Arnett: Yeah.
I could have listened to them all day.
Sean Hayes: They're exactly what you'd hope they'd be.
Jason Bateman: Curious.
Still completely fascinated by making music.
Will Arnett: That's probably why they've lasted so long.
Sean Hayes: Agreed.
Jason Bateman: Alright.
We'll see everybody next week.
Will Arnett: Bye, everybody.
Sean Hayes: Bye.